Nigel Farage:
I mean, it’s very simple. We voted to leave. To leave political union. To become an independent country. Unfortunately, the Prime Minister doesn’t really believe in that.
Nigel Farage:
So here’s the odd thing. We spent the last 30 years trying to opt out of bits of the European Union and our Prime Minister in these negotiations has been trying to opt us back into bits of the European Union.
Nigel Farage:
There is a way through this, the European Union now in Brussels are ready to do a free trade deal with, I picked up that mood last week, very distinctly, when I was over there. Why don’t we just get rid of checkers, get rid of regulator alignment, get rid of us staying close to it.
Matt Kelly:
And I think this whole idea that it’s simple and people just want to leave ignores the complexity underneath it. And the reality that within that simple statement there is a huge, huge mess that is unpickable. And we’ve been through two years now of people trying to unpick it and the government still can’t decide what it means.
Matt Kelly:
Yeah. How do we expect all of these people who voted in very good faith to leave?
Piers Morgan:
If it’s so complicated.
Matt Kelly:
Yeah.
Piers Morgan:
Why would we expect the electorate to be any better equipped to deal with this vote now than they were two years ago?
Matt Kelly:
I completely agree. I think the electorate are ill equipped, but I think Westminster-
Piers Morgan:
So why have a people’s vote then?
Matt Kelly:
Westminster is even worse to deal with it.
Piers Morgan:
Right, but it’s their job as- [crosstalk 00:01:14]
Matt Kelly:
It’s complete logjams.
Piers Morgan:
My point is you campaigning for people’s vote, right? I would argue as someone who voted remain, there’s already been a people’s vote and you have to respect it. You don’t want to do that. You want a second vote, but my point is if the electorate is deemed to be so ill equipped to deal with something so complex, why trust them with another vote?
Matt Kelly:
Because I think now it’s a bad job and we’ve got to make the best of it.
Matt Kelly:
My personal view, and I’m sorry to sound depressing on this, is that we have done ourselves enormous damage whatever happens. And there’s no pretty way out of this.
Piers Morgan:
But you would say that because you’re the editor of the New European. Somebody who’s [crosstalk 00:01:46] complain.
Matt Kelly:
I say that because I believe it.
Nigel Farage:
But this idea-
Piers Morgan:
No, I [crosstalk 00:01:48] you, but Nigel fundamentally, you believe, Nigel fundamentally believes the complete opposite. Do you accept-?
Matt Kelly:
Do you? Do you believe that this has done us any good?
Nigel Farage:
I, well, of course-
Matt Kelly:
What? The last two years has been good for Great Britain?
Nigel Farage:
What price freedom? What price independence?
Matt Kelly:
What do you mean by freedom?
Nigel Farage:
That is, this not a vote about economics. You know, I’m tired of hearing the pro EU side telling us foreign direct investment will leave. The city will close. It’ll be a disaster. We heard that over the Euro.
Matt Kelly:
I’m not saying-
Nigel Farage:
20 years ago, and we’re hearing the same thing from your side of the argument now. I also really object to the idea that people did not know what they were voting for. They did. They absolutely knew what they were voting for-
Matt Kelly:
No they didn’t.
Nigel Farage:
And they were threatened.
Matt Kelly:
No they didn’t.
Nigel Farage:
They were told-
Susanna Reid:
Nigel, even you-
Nigel Farage:
They were told-
Susanna Reid:
Nigel, even you admit it.
Nigel Farage:
… told that terrible things would happen.
Susanna Reid:
But even you admitted, the morning after the referendum on this program that one of the central tenets of the referendum campaign, 350 million on the side of a bus for the NHS, was not going to happen.
Nigel Farage:
That was- Let me-
Susanna Reid:
So you acknowledged that people didn’t know what they were voting for.
Nigel Farage:
That was … If that was an inaccuracy from Boris, it was nothing compared to 50 years of lies that we’ve been given.
Matt Kelly:
Nigel-
Nigel Farage:
Being told this is just about trade. It’s not, this is about politics. We have voted to run our own country for better or worse, richer or poorer, till death us do part. That is our decision and the idea that this should be forced upon the people again.
Nigel Farage:
I’ll tell you something, the breakdown in trust and belief, not just in our politicians but in our entire democratic system will be irreparable.
Matt Kelly:
What do you mean will be? It already is?
Nigel Farage:
If people are made to vote again.
Matt Kelly:
It’s completely gone already. I mean we’re in, the politics has completely lost.
Nigel Farage:
Well, I certainly … Certainly politicians aren’t popular. But-
Matt Kelly:
But one of the reasons, Nigel, that they’re not popular-
Nigel Farage:
But you told people-
Matt Kelly:
Is that you come out with all of these abstract concepts-
Nigel Farage:
You told people, you told people-
Matt Kelly:
Like and sovereigncy and freedom of the people and will of the people-
Nigel Farage:
How is freedom abstract?
Matt Kelly:
And you haven’t got the plan.
Nigel Farage:
How is freedom-
Matt Kelly:
You haven’t got a plan.
Nigel Farage:
But if you think freedom’s abstract, we’ve absolutely, we’ve got to the heart now-
Matt Kelly:
What is it? What is it? What is it?
Nigel Farage:
Of what all of us need to understand.
Matt Kelly:
What does it qualify? I’ll tell you what’s not abstract-
Nigel Farage:
You control your own borders. You make your own laws. You run your own country.
Matt Kelly:
No, it’s not.
Nigel Farage:
And you are the masters of your own destiny-
Matt Kelly:
We ran our own- We were masters-
Nigel Farage:
Not governed.
Matt Kelly:
We were mass-
Nigel Farage:
Not governed.
Matt Kelly:
Nigel-
Nigel Farage:
By a bunch of old men in Brussels.
Matt Kelly:
We were masters of our destiny when we chose to enter the European Union-
Nigel Farage:
We were lied to.
Matt Kelly:
Because we thought it was better for our economy.
Nigel Farage:
Because we were lied to.
Matt Kelly:
And it was better for our economy.
Nigel Farage:
Hang on, my parents voted for free trade.
Matt Kelly:
We were the fastest-
Nigel Farage:
Not for political domination.
Matt Kelly:
We were the fastest growing economy in the G7 before this. Now we’re the slowest. The European Union has-
Nigel Farage:
We’re not the slowest. Italy is slower than us.
Matt Kelly:
The European Union-
Nigel Farage:
Stop lying with the figures.
Matt Kelly:
I’m not lying. If-
Nigel Farage:
Italy are slower than we are.
Matt Kelly:
No. We are the slowest-
Susanna Reid:
Do you know what? I can imagine people at home-
Matt Kelly:
Slowest growing economy in the G7.
Susanna Reid:
Being absolutely fed up-
Nigel Farage:
because no one cares about the economics-
Matt Kelly:
I agree with that.
Nigel Farage:
But nobody believes the economics. This is simple.
Susanna Reid:
Nigel, is-
Nigel Farage:
It’s not about me saying we’d be better off, or you saying we’d be worse off. It’s about do we govern our own country or don’t we?
Susanna Reid:
Okay.
Matt Kelly:
No it’s not about that. It’s not about that.
Nigel Farage:
That is what Brexit’s about.
Susanna Reid:
Nigel, okay, is Theresa May in a position to get a good deal for the UK or should someone else take over?
Nigel Farage:
If she sticks to the checkers plan we will finish up in a worse place than we are today. We will effectively still be taking European rules, still paying money, still having a foreign court overseeing us, still have open borders and have zero say on any of it. Either May chucks checkers and does it quickly or the party will chuck her.
Piers Morgan:
Okay. Matt. Let me ask you this. On the people’s vote, what would the question be? Assuming we get to a peoples vote, which may happen, I mean it may be that nothing else will work. We get to a people’s vote. What would the question be for the public the second time around?
Matt Kelly:
So I think the first thing to say is that that should be the one thing that we can now leave to our parliamentarians to decide.
Piers Morgan:
But you’re the editor of the New European-
Matt Kelly:
But, yes, so I would say it should be binary. I don’t, this idea that there’s three things is going to split something.
Susanna Reid:
Right, it can’t be.
Piers Morgan:
So what would it be?
Matt Kelly:
So it would be whatever the deal on the table is versus remaining in the European Union.
Piers Morgan:
Do you accept the deal that’s on the table or do you stay in?
Matt Kelly:
Yes.
Nigel Farage:
Or do you leave? Or do you leave.
Matt Kelly:
And to me-
Nigel Farage:
Do you accept the deal or do you leave?
Susanna Reid:
Or do you go back and renegotiate?
Matt Kelly:
No, I wouldn’t go back. I honestly, I think we’ve wasted two years.
Piers Morgan:
But at the [crosstalk 00:05:33]
Nigel Farage:
You can’t have this both ways.
Piers Morgan:
But Matt, here’s the problem-
Nigel Farage:
We voted already.
Piers Morgan:
Here’s my problem. I would love us to go back in. I’m a remainer really at heart, I don’t know why we’re doing this. However, hasn’t he got a point? If you don’t make leaving one of the options, maybe the deal on the table is nothing that he says represents Brexit at all.
Matt Kelly:
But isn’t that just a complete picture of the whole problem that no one can decide what Brexit means because it’s unknowable? Brexit does not work.
Piers Morgan:
But that is a failure of Theresa May and her leadership.
Matt Kelly:
No, it’s a failure of the question.
Piers Morgan:
Somebody who, by the way, is a remainer who therefore doesn’t really believe in where the train’s going anyway.
Matt Kelly:
You know the best analogy in this whole thing has been about they’re picking the eggs out of the omelette after it’s been made. You cannot take the eggs out once they’ve been cracked. We’re too far depp.
Piers Morgan:
If it were the other way round, if remain had won 52-48-
Matt Kelly:
Would he have stopped?
Piers Morgan:
Would you have accepted?
Nigel Farage:
There would be no debate.
Piers Morgan:
Would you-
Nigel Farage:
There wouldn’t be a debate.
Piers Morgan:
Would you have accepted that there could be a second referendum if Nigel demanded one?
Nigel Farage:
There wouldn’t be a debate.
Matt Kelly:
Well Nigel said it was unfinished business. He’s on record saying 52-48-
Nigel Farage:
No, no, no. I said some would not reconcile themselves-
Matt Kelly:
No you didn’t.
Nigel Farage:
But it will be at least 20 years before we had any prospect of a referendum-
Matt Kelly:
Hold on-
Nigel Farage:
How look, we have made a decision-
Matt Kelly:
Fake news though. Fake news.
Nigel Farage:
You are quite entitled to call for a second referendum on this, quite entitled. Once we’ve left and given this a few years to see whether it works. I would respect that.
Matt Kelly:
We’ve given it a few years.
Nigel Farage:
But the idea, before we’ve even left the European Union, that you should force people to vote again because you think they’re ignorant peasants-
Matt Kelly:
What are you scared of?
Nigel Farage:
Who didn’t get it right.
Matt Kelly:
What are you scared of?
Susanna Reid:
On that, but can I put one thing-
Nigel Farage:
It took us 40 years to get a referendum out of you.
Susanna Reid:
You don’t want there to be a deal because you want to stay. If we did a referendum on this is the deal or we stay, surely that kiboshes the negotiations because the EU would have no motivation to give us a good deal because if they give us a bad deal, they know that the public would vote against it and stay in the EU.
Matt Kelly:
I’m not convinced that the EU are that cynical and you’ll laugh.
Piers Morgan:
Come on, Matt, come on.
Matt Kelly:
No, no, I’m not. I’m not. I think the EU-
Susanna Reid:
They want the UK to stay as part of the EU-
Piers Morgan:
Just look at Junker.
Susanna Reid:
because they don’t want other countries to go that way.
Matt Kelly:
Junker’s not the point, is it? Junker’s not the point.
Piers Morgan:
Look at [inaudible 00:07:28], they want to screw us in the ground.
Matt Kelly:
They’re not point. Ultimately it’s going to come down to-
Piers Morgan:
It’s not in their interest to do any good deal with us over this, is it? Because if we do a good deal and it’s beneficial to this country, everybody also will want to do it.
Nigel Farage:
The Danes will want to leave. The Italians … I mean the whole European project is crumbling around its ears anyway.
Piers Morgan:
It all hinges actually on how this gets resolved. That’s why it’s so important. But I come back to this people’s vote. If the only options are take this deal, which many Brexiteers may feel a time it washes up on a table to be voted on is no where near what they thought they voted for, or to stay in. What you’re really saying is a Brexit option as most Brexiteers define it no longer exists as an option to vote.
Matt Kelly:
But that’s not my fault. That’s the fault of the fact that Brexit is completely undefinable.
Piers Morgan:
But that’s what you would like because it basically basically means Brexit becomes no longer an option.
Matt Kelly:
Yeah. No, let me just say what I would like, right? Nigel’s full of his abstracts around freedom of the country itself.
Susanna Reid:
Yeah. But they’re very powerful.
Nigel Farage:
It’s the sort of thing our grandparetns used to fight for, it really matters.
Matt Kelly:
Yeah. I know that, but hang on, let me say something.
Nigel Farage:
Being a free country actually matter.
Matt Kelly:
Let me say something. I suggest that we are a free country and I think it’s absolutely insulting to the idea that Westminster isn’t a sovereign nation. What are the load of nonsense.
Nigel Farage:
You gave it away.
Matt Kelly:
Listen, what I’m more interested in is the people who voted in good faith in Sunderland, in north east of the country, in Wales, who voted believing that almost overnight their lives are going to improve because that’s what people told them. That now they’re sitting there thinking, hang on, all I’m hearing is a procession of bad news. I’m not saying it’s going to be a catastrophe. I don’t. I think this language of extremes is really damaging. But what I am saying is that where is the obvious upside now? And if you’re a betting person and if you’re betting on your family’s life, your future, you’re going to be okay with your nice pension, but these people-
Nigel Farage:
You would say let’s get out of this failing European project-
Matt Kelly:
No you wouldn’t.
Nigel Farage:
You’ve got populism rising-
Matt Kelly:
That’s politics.
Nigel Farage:
To give every country in Europe this idea-
Matt Kelly:
You present yourself as an anti-politician. You’re not-
Nigel Farage:
… of a European government, a European government-
Susanna Reid:
Do you think-
Nigel Farage:
… governed by an unelected European Commission is unacceptable for the whole of Europe.
Matt Kelly:
This is the elites talking.
Nigel Farage:
And we are the first getting out thank goodness.
Matt Kelly:
This is elites talking.
Piers Morgan:
But Matt, there is a slight self-righteousness about your position, which is that you-
Matt Kelly:
There’s all, you know me Piers.
Piers Morgan:
Of course, I mean we used to work together. [crosstalk 00:09:45]
Susanna Reid:
Is that yes I’m self righteous or no I’m not?
Matt Kelly:
If it’s within my nature, I am genetically self-righteous.
Piers Morgan:
We worked together for years at the Mirror and I have to say, nothing to do with this debate, but the New Europe has been a brilliant success story.
Matt Kelly:
Thank you.
Piers Morgan:
In a business that is actually really struggling, newspapers, and you’ve got it going and it has a following of people. You get hold of credible writers and I take my hat off to you. My problem with it is there is this, I feel it when I talked to Allister Campbell and lots of other very fervent remainers, there’s a self righteousness about them being absolutely right.
Susanna Reid:
Shouldn’t you believe you’re right?
Matt Kelly:
No, I don’t-
Piers Morgan:
Well hang on. My point is this, and yet nobody knows, the best interview I saw recently was some Lord last week. He said, here’s the bottom line, he said, Skylar, he said none of us know what’s going to happen. The truthful answer is we don’t really know.
Matt Kelly:
Piers, this is entirely my position.
Piers Morgan:
But all your pretext is it’s going to be bad.
Matt Kelly:
No, that’s not my pretext.
Piers Morgan:
Even thought we haven’t haven’t left yet.
Matt Kelly:
No, you’re misrepresenting me. My pretext is there’s not enough obvious upside to take this enormous gamble with all our futures. There’s just isn’t.
Piers Morgan:
Nigel, respond to that.
Nigel Farage:
Do you know what? None of us can predict what will happen leaving the European Union or staying in the European Union.
Matt Kelly:
What are the upsides?
Nigel Farage:
And of that is the absolute truth of it.
Matt Kelly:
What are the upsides?
Nigel Farage:
But in a world that is rapidly changing and given that the eurozone is now only 15% of the global economy, let’s get with the 21st century. Let’s not obsess with Europe. Let’s get our independence and let’s start looking globally-
Matt Kelly:
How can you not, how can you not obsess?
Nigel Farage:
Let’s think globally about our future. There is a big, exciting future out there.
Matt Kelly:
How can you not obsess with the biggest trading block in the world? [crosstalk 00:11:10]
Nigel Farage:
It’s diminishing every year that goes by.
Piers Morgan:
Time out. Before we finish this debate, I want to just talk to you, Nigel, about part of the problem are that some of the voices in Europe that you in particular have been supportive of and have been very supportive of you, are what many people in this country believe are highly undesirable people.
Matt Kelly:
Fascists.
Piers Morgan:
Viktor Orbán, right? That Hungary prime minister who is clearly very antisemitic, for example, at a time when antisemitism is a huge debate in this country.
Nigel Farage:
Well ask the Labor Party about that.
Piers Morgan:
But how can you align yourself in any way with somebody who is so demonstrably antisemitic?
Nigel Farage:
I think the real point about Viktor Orbán is that he does not accept mass migration into Hungary, particularly-
Piers Morgan:
But he’s antisemitic.
Nigel Farage:
I’ve never seen it. I’ve never seen it.
Piers Morgan:
You’ve never seen it?
Nigel Farage:
No, I really haven’t. What I have seen is he is worried about mass Muslim immigration into Hungary fundamentally changing the country, but let me just say this Piers, the reason you’ve got the growth of brand new parties, and I have to say there are many of them that I would not support or want supporting me. The reason is that the cold concept of free movement of people and of anybody crossing the Mediterranean being allowed in has spawned a new kind of politics.
Piers Morgan:
Do you feel-
Nigel Farage:
It is all because of the failure, the failure-
Piers Morgan:
Okay, let me ask you this.
Nigel Farage:
Of those that support the European Union.
Piers Morgan:
Okay, but do you feel that Jewish people have no homeland but feel the whole world is theirs?
Nigel Farage:
I would never subscribe to that.
Piers Morgan:
And what would you think about somebody who said that?
Nigel Farage:
Well, I wouldn’t vote labor, that’s for certain.
Matt Kelly:
Can I make a point?
Piers Morgan:
What would you say about somebody who said that?
Nigel Farage:
Well, if that’s the Labor party that I’ve … Piers, Piers, look-
Piers Morgan:
No, that’s Viktor Orbán.
Matt Kelly:
That’s Viktor Orbán.
Nigel Farage:
I’m not here to support-
Piers Morgan:
But wouldn’t it help you?
Nigel Farage:
I am not here to support the far left in Greece. Let’s forget, you know, don’t forget for a minute it was the far left in Greece that [crosstalk 00:12:49] government.
Piers Morgan:
But what about this guy Orbán who’s been so effusive about you in public and you’ve been supportive about him in public, right? It doesn’t help your cause to be aligning yourself with people like that.
Nigel Farage:
I’m not aligned with him, but let’s make the point-
Piers Morgan:
Would you denounce what he said about Jewish people?
Nigel Farage:
Piers, Piers, Piers, he is the democratically elected leader of Hungary, reelected last year with a big majority. He does not accept that mass migration within Europe is a success. That is what it is really all about.
Piers Morgan:
He’s also an antisemite.
Matt Kelly:
Can I make a very quick point on Orbán? Can I make a very quick point? Yesterday we had Michael Gove-
Nigel Farage:
Let me tell you, culturally, culturally you will [inaudible 00:13:18] that.
Matt Kelly:
We had Michael Gove on BBC TV, effectively saying that Britain is no longer in a position to call out antisemitic fascist regimes because we’ve got to do a Brexit deal with them.
Susanna Reid:
We need them to be on our side.
Matt Kelly:
That’s some sovereignty this is turning out to be.
Nigel Farage:
We might get an anti Semite government in this country if Corbyn takes over.
Matt Kelly:
Some taking back control. Honestly.
Nigel Farage:
Let’s at least get perspective. New politics is happening in Europe because of the failure of the European Union. Mass migration is not what the public want anywhere in Europe.